Elders' Meeting Scriptures (see previous post)

The Scriptures that I shared with the elders were from those quoted below (can't remember exactly which ones we read in full on the night)  in the hope that they might see that a Biblical basis for my view is at least possible.  

(Indeed, I mentioned that I can find many more verses to support this view than I can find to support many other mainstream Christian doctrines which seem to be held as non-negotiables, like the Trinity, the rapture, the millenium, etc.)

From Jesus .....
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.  John 12 : 32

From Peter .....
He (Jesus) must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.  Acts 3 : 21

From Paul .....
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.  Romans 3 : 23 - 24
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.  Romans 5 : 18
And so all Israel will be saved, ....  Romans 11 : 26
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.  Romans 11 : 32
For from him and through him and to him are all things.  To him be the glory forever.  Romans 11 : 36
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.  1 Cor 15 : 22
God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. .....  2 Cor 5 : 19
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfilment - to bring all things  in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.  Ephesians 1 :  9 - 10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.  Philippians 2 : 10 - 11 with 1 Cor 12 : 3
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.  Colossians 1 : 19 - 20
We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and especially of those who believe.  1 Timothy 4 : 10

From the author of Hebrews .....
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.  Hebrews 2 : 9

From John .....
The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.  John 1 : 9
He (Jesus) is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.  1 John 2 : 2

The New Testament has other relevant verses, but those listed above are the only ones we visited at the elders meeting.

I believe it is very difficult to read these verses with an open mind and not admit that a Biblical basis for the view that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and that all will eventually, one way or another, be reconciled to the Father, to the glory of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus, is at least possible.  Peter said that we should always be ready to give a reason for the hope we have, and I have shared these Scriptures to show why I hold to this wider hope of Jesus drawing all to himself eventually.

As a result of questions I was asked we also touched on .........
1.  The Biblical evidence for salvation beyond life on this planet.  We visited Peter's report that showed the population of the earth prior to the flood were judged and "executed" physically at the time, but were subsequently made alive spiritually after Jesus preached to them before his ascension. 1 Peter 3 : 18 - 20 and 1 Peter 4 : 5 - 6. 
One elder suggested this may also have some connection with the ascending captives in Ephesians 4 :  8.

2.  Death was the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Cor 15 : 26) and so when death disappears, there can only be life remaining.

3.  Two "opposing" Scriptures were raised by one elder - the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 , and Matthew 25 : 46.
Although I was accused of ignoring or dismissing a part of the Bible, I tried to explain that the Luke 16 parable is a perfect example of the gulf between the righteous and unrighteous in the Old Covenant era before Jesus provided the means to bridge that gulf, and should not be used to form our post-Jesus' death and resurrection theological views.
I also mentioned there were translation-to-English difficulties and inconsistencies associated with Matthew 25 : 46 and suggested it was better to allow verses that were clear and undisputed to form our theological views, rather than problem ones.  Even so, I believe the Greek of this verse does not introduce the difficulties that are caused in the English, and therefore this verse is not such a strong "opposing" verse at all.

I trust this is an accurate record of the study we did.  I didn't have any notes, nor did I take any during the meeting.  We just skipped through the NT quickly as I did not wish to waste any of the time I had been allotted.

In trying to sum up our different views in the simplest way, I suggested that while the elders believed that punishment in hell was forever, I believed it was not, and was for the purpose of restoring the Father's wayward children, as all loving parental discipline should be. One elder openly agreed that this was the bottom line difference between us.  In any case, the length of time God's wayward children might spend in hell is hardly a core belief-issue for Christians, so whether we agree on this issue or not must not become the cause of any lack of love, respect or fellowship between us.  Barry

Shoot the Messenger

Here I am, back writing sooner than I thought I would be.

As you know I am interstate looking after a church while its pastors are away on holidays. I had four sermons to preach and I planned to use the stories of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost sons from Luke 15 as their underlying theme.  The four messages were to focus on (1) the loving and forgiving father, (2) the behaviour and fate of the two sons, (3) a more appropriate response from the elder brother (personal mission) and (4) the mission of the local church.

In my first message I aimed to paint the biggest picture of God I could and to invite the church to paint their own personal biggest picture.
I preached about the correct meaning of "prodigal" and how the father was so prodigal in his attitude and behaviour - recklessly extravagant with his love, forgiveness, grace, restoration, etc.
I applied this to God, while pointing out that most Christians don't see God with such prodigality as Jesus' parables paint Him.
To illustrate, I briefly described Calvinism and Arminianism, and showed how these two most common Christian positions fell short in their views of God compared with the views expressed in Luke 15.
I then shared my own view of God as a God of unconditional love and sovereignty who could and would do whatever was necessary to ensure that all of his children eventually returned home.
I finished by encouraging the church to create their own biggest view of God.

The response was interesting.
Several people clapped when I finished speaking.
Several others came and thanked me for a message they "really needed to hear".
A couple came and asked questions because the thought that God might eventually get all of his children home was new to them and they wanted to know more, and a couple of others came and politely said they disagreed with that view.
The elders requested me to attend a meeting as they said many people were upset with this idea, it had caused division in the church and some were not going to return to the church until I was no longer in the pulpit to share such ideas.

At the subsequent elders meeting, which was cordial and respectful, I was told I could not continue my preaching assignment and indeed, it would be better for the congregation if I didn't even attend the church in the remaining time I was in town.
After agreeing to these, and since there had been no discussion up to this point of my offending view, just that it had caused problems, I asked if we could discuss the view, or at least if I could share the Biblical basis for my view and was politely, but cautiously, given a short time to do so.  Disappointingly, one elder, in reluctantly giving assent to my request, also said that whatever I said or showed him would make no difference to his opinion -  a sad opening statement to a study of the Scriptures by the spiritual leaders of the church.

One elder recorded the verses I shared, one other said he would like to give them some more thought, the others remained fairly silent.  I was asked a few questions, one of which was how this view of God and his possible success had changed my life, and I think they were surprised that my answer included my increased motivation for sharing the gospel with those who are currently lost.  (I will put the verses I shared with the elders in a separate post, as this one is getting too long.)

The whole episode has been a sad and disappointing one, and given that "the length of time wayward children might spend in hell" is hardly a core belief-issue for Christians, I guess I was as surprised as I was saddened by the elders' dramatic response and the course of action they took without even discussing the matter with me.

I would have expected such a strong reaction and subsequent course of action if I had shared an idea that belittled God or discounted the work of Jesus on the cross in some way, but getting that response after sharing an idea that enhances our concept of God's love and grace and which gives Christ's work on the cross its fullest possible scope and effect really surprised me in a Christian church, and especially one that so openly and frequently preaches grace.

Why am I sharing all this with you?

As much as you may be convinced of the love and sovereignty of God, and of his success in restoring all his creation to himself eventually, there are many who find more comfort in a lesser and less successful God and will emotionally and vehemently defend that position no matter what. 
If you are brave enough to publicly state your belief that Jesus does indeed save the world, as He came to do, be prepared to duck for cover if there are good Calvinists or Evangelicals nearby.

Personally though, although I have been so saddened and disappointed, I have had this incredible peace on the inside, which just has to be God's doing.  Barry

Let's do some thinking

Hi Guys and Gal
Lying in bed this morning, I was thinking about how to make it easier for you to generate some discussion on the blogsite (assuming you might want to) while I am otherwise engaged these next few weeks.
Since all of you are parents and have raised at least one child, I thought I would pose a series of questions that you might consider, and hopefully some discussion material might pop out at the end.

Do you love your kids?
Do/did you ever discipline them?

Why?
What is/was the purpose of your discipline?
How severe is/was your discipline?
Does/did it ever stop?
When?
Does/did it achieve its purpose?

Does God love his children (the people who populate his earth)?
Does he ever discipline them?
Why?
What is the purpose of His discipline?
How severe is His discipline?
Does it ever stop?
When?
Does it achieve its purpose?


What Bible stories, parables, verses might support your answers?
What Bible stories, parables, verses might challenge your answers?

Use the Post a Comment link below to share the thoughts that pop out of your considering this.

On "Vacation"

Sorry Guys and Gal
But I am going to give this a rest for a couple of months, unless some spare time unexpectantly turns up.
I am preparing a series of sermons for a stint to help out in Cairns next month and will need to keep focussed on that preparation.  I have a couple of posts half-ready, and if I get the chance, I will finish them, but I am just sending out a warning that nothing fresh may appear for a while.

But that should not stop YOU from making some comments and having some discussion on the posts already there.
Haven't heard much from you great scholars so far........ so how about it....?
I will have the time to read what you write and make spontaneous comments on it.

Blessings all, Barry

Where Do We Start to Form our Biblical Views?

Since I am still away from home and on holidays with friends, I have not had the "privacy" to do any serious study or to write a well-thought through post.  But I have been doing a lot of thinking in the "privacy" of my mind, so I am writing this from some of that thinking.

Most Bible students try to understand the Bible and form their theological views using two rules:
1.  Allow the clear, straight forward verses to help us understand the meaning of difficult or more complex verses.
2.  Force the interpretation of verses that challenge a particular theological view we hold into harmony with the verses that support our already-formed view.

The first of these seems sound and sensible, so I won't comment on it any further.
The second raises some problems.

Firstly, it raises the prospect of us using our current understanding (theology) as the only determiner of the meaning of some difficult verses, thus hiding other possible views from our consideration.
Secondly, it raises the possibility of starting with the wrong set of verses to determine our theology and then trying to make everything else fit.

Let me give an example of this second problem that is very relevant to the topic of this blogsite.

Most people use the verses that describe God's judgement and punishment to form the view that all those who do not get to hear about Jesus and accept him as Saviour before they leave this planet will be tormented in hell forever. We shall call these the judgement-punishment verses - JP verses.

The verses that talk of God's salvation for all and promise that He will be glorified in all things at the end of the ages are paraphrased or interpreted to fit that torment-hell view.  We shall call these the universal reconciliation verses - UR verses.

Mainstream christianity always seems to start with the JP verses and the torment-hell conclusions they invite and either ignore the UR verses or interpret them in a way to fit.  There seem to be very few people who start with the UR verses and the obvious conclusions they demand, and try to interpret the JP verses in a way that is consistent with these conclusions.

Let's be more specific.
JP verses include verses like .....
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them." [John 3 : 36 TNIV]
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." [Matt 25 : 46 TNIV]
"Then I saw a great white throne ..... The dead were judged according to what they had done ..... All whose names were not found written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire." [Rev 20 : 11 - 15 TNIV]

UR verses include verses like .....
"As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." [1 Cor 15 : 22 TNIV]
"..... we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, and especially of those who believe." [1 Tim 4 : 10 TNIV]
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. [1 John 2 : 2 TNIV]

Taking a particular example, readers starting with Rev 20 : 11 - 15 quickly draw the conclusion that unbelievers will be tormented in hell forever.  They then paraphrase 1 Cor 15 : 22 so that it reads something like "For as in Adam all die, so all who are in Christ will be made alive." to fit in with their conclusion from Rev 20, and not contradict it.

However, readers who start with 1 Cor 15 : 22 and draw the conclusion that everyone will be saved eventually, then see all of God's judgements and punishments, even the lake of fire, as remedial and, like all good parents, God is using these to produce better attitudes and behaviours and attitudes in His children so that their relationship with Him will eventually be restored.

So where is our starting point?  Do we start with a God of unconditional love who desires all his children to be saved and in relationship with him eventually, or with God as an angry, vengeful judge who will punish forever his rebellious children (and those of his children who have never heard of Jesus)?

Is the gospel we proclaim one of good news for all, or a mixture of good news for some and very bad news for others?

Jesus said the truth will set us free.  Does the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection set all of his creation free, or only those chosen to belong to Him during their short lives on this planet?

What is Hell?

Today I am in Adelaide on holiday with our friends, Trevor and Nita Cole.  Scanning the magazine section of The Adelaide Advertiser I came across a review of a new book called "The Big Mo", with the subtitle "Why Momentum Now Rules the World", by Mark Roeder.
This really clicked with me, especially while thinking about writing this post.

The popular concept of 'hell', including the view held by mainstream christianity, has gained its own momentum since Augustine got the ball rolling centuries and centuries ago.

It's a bit like the word 'Jesus'.  If you asked an "unchurched" child (a child uneducated about such things) what the word 'Jesus' means, you would most likely get the answer that it is something you say when you get angry or when things aren't going your way.  This would not have been the answer of a generation or two ago, but the momentum of the last few decades would certainly make it so now.

So what is 'hell'?

The common view is that 'hell' is a place of fiery torment where God sends "bad" people forever to execute His justice on them and to appease His wrath.
Even mainstream christianity agrees with this view, while simultaneously declaring that God is love and unconditionally loves all of His creation.

Most people would say that this is the view of the church, and they would be right.  Most people would also say that this is the view of the Bible, but, in this case, they would be wrong.
So let's find the correct or original meaning of the English word 'hell'.

Dictionaries are designed to give the meanings of words as they are used in society.  They are not definitive authorities on the correct meanings of words, but are reporters of the popular and current use of language.  Some dictionaries also give older and even obsolete meanings and uses of words as well, and many discuss word origins and their histories.
Let's see what www.dictionary.com says about 'hell'.

–- Used as a Noun
1. the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits; Gehenna or Tartarus.
2. any place or state of torment or misery: They made their father's life a hell on earth.
3. something that causes torment or misery: Having that cut stitched without anesthesia was hell.
4. the powers of evil.
5. the abode of the dead; Sheol or Hades.
6. extreme disorder or confusion; chaos: The children let both dogs into the house, and all hell broke loose.
7. heck.
8. a receptacle into which a tailor throws scraps.
9. Also called hellbox. Printing. a box into which a printer throws discarded type.
10. the utterance of 'hell' in swearing or for emphasis.
11. the hell, Informal.
    a. (used as an intensifier to express surprise, anger, impatience, etc.): Why the hell can't the trains run on time?
    b. (used sarcastically or ironically to express the opposite of what is being stated): Are you listening to me? The hell you are!
   
–- Used as an Interjection
12. (used to express surprise, irritation, disgust, etc.)
 

-- Used as a Verb Phrase
13. hell around, Slang.  to live or act in a wild or dissolute manner: All they cared about was drinking and helling around. 

-- Used as an Idiom
14. be hell on, Slang.
    a. to be unpleasant to or painful for.
    b. to be harmful to: These country roads are hell on tyres.
15. for the hell of it, Informal.
    a. to see what will happen; for adventure, fun, excitement, etc.: For the hell of it, let's just get on the next bus and see where it takes us.
    b. with no particular purpose; for no special reason: I called him up for the hell of it, and he offered me a job.
16. get/catch hell, Slang. to suffer a scolding; receive a harsh reprimand: We'll get hell from our parents for staying out so late again.
17. give someone hell, Informal.  to reprimand or reproach severely.
18. go to hell in a handbasket. Informal.
19. hell on wheels, Slang.  extremely demanding, fast-paced, aggressive, effective, or the like: The new job is hell on wheels. Our sales staff is hell on wheels when it comes to getting the most out of every account.
20. like hell, Informal.
    a. with great speed, effort, intensity, etc.: We ran like hell to get home before the storm. She tried like hell to get him to change his mind.
    b. (used sarcastically or ironically to express the opposite of what is being stated): He says the motor will never break down? Like hell it won't!
21. play hell with, Slang.  to deal recklessly with; bring injury or harm to: Snowstorms played hell with the flow of city traffic.
22. raise hell, Slang.
    a. to indulge in wild celebration.
    b. to create an uproar; object violently to: She'll raise hell when she sees what your rabbit has done to her garden.
23. the/to hell with, Informal.  (used to express dismissal, rejection, contempt, disappointment, or the like): If we have to walk five miles to see the view, the hell with it! He wouldn't even speak to me, so to hell with him!
24. what the hell, Informal.  (used to express lack of concern or worry, indifference, abandonment, surrender, etc.): As long as you're borrowing $100, what the hell, borrow $200.

Amazingly, in defintion 5, an original meaning of 'hell' is still listed, although I rarely hear it used this way today.
The original meaning of 'hell' means the concealed or covered or invisible place, and therefore the abode of the dead, or the grave, having been derived from the Saxon word 'helan' meaning 'to cover' or 'to hide'. 

Irish potato farmers regularly talked of helling their potatoes, meaning to mount dirt on them, or to dig holes and bury them, so hiding or covering them.  Even today we still use the word 'helmet', which is a perfect example of the use of this meaning to convey a covering or hiding of the head.

Isn't it amazing how this correct meaning has been almost lost and completely overtaken by an incorrect one, and how this incorrect one has totally infiltrated our language and is used whenever a concept of harm or mayhem is being expressed?

Using the original definition, 'hell', or 'the grave', is then the correct translation of any Hebrew or Greek word used in the Bible that means hidden or concealed or covered, or where these meanings are inferred.  'Sheol' in Hebrew and 'Hades' in Greek should therefore be translated 'hell' (correctly understood) or, better still, 'the grave' while we are trying to rid people of their incorrect understanding of the meaning of 'hell'.

There is no connection with punishment or everlasting torment or fiery judgement.  Even Job said he preferred going to sheol (hell or the grave) rather than staying on earth experiencing God's wrath.

If only you would hide me in the grave (sheol) and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me! [Job 14 : 13 NIV]

The more modern translations have corrected the confusion caused by the KJV in translating 'sheol', but have usually allowed the confusion with 'hades' to remain.
As an aside, it's interesting to note that the translators of the King James Version, steeped in the mainstream understanding of 'hell' as a place of never-ending torment, often translated 'sheol' as 'the grave' when referring to good people and 'hell' when referring to bad people. 

The translation of 'sheol' and 'hades' is easy to sort out with a good Bible dictionary.  The real problems arise when 'hell' is used to translate two other Greek New Testament words.  We'll look at these words and their English translations in another post.

In the meantime, 'hell' is correctly a place of concealment, a place hidden or invisible to others, the abode of the dead in relation to those still on the planet. So whenever we notice the word 'hell' or 'the grave' in our English Bibles, if it is a translation of 'sheol' or 'hades', we can be assured they are correct translations, provided we have the correct definition of 'hell' in mind.  
Barry

The Big Picture

At the risk of seeming to be overly clinical and trite, I would like to paint a potted history of man's relationship with God.  I know this is ambitious and risky, but here goes........

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God created the heavens and the earth. He also created man (Adam) in his own likeness and placed him on the earth.  Tempted by Satan, Adam decided to make his own judgements about right and wrong and went his own way rather than follow God's leading.  In this way he "died", he moved out of fellowship with God and became independent of Him.

Adam's descendants followed the same lifestyle, and sin and rebellion against God's leadership ravaged the planet, so God decided to start again.

Saving the only righteous family on earth at the time (Noah's), God removed the remainder of the earth's population in a world-wide flood.

Noah's family had the opportunity to make a fresh start in God-man relationships, but it wasn't long before Satan's influence persuaded men to follow the old ways of Adam.

God selected one nation (Israel) to be the example to others and to spread the news about how to live in harmony and intimacy with God and gave her a written code of conduct to follow.

But again, it all went wrong as Israel followed Satan's promptings to create their own codes of conduct and to rebel against God's authority and leadership.

Instead of starting yet again, God sent Jesus to pay the penalty for man's sin and rebellion, and to provide the way to re-establish fellowship with God for all of earth's inhabitants. Those who became followers of The Way became a new nation (the Church), comprised of all followers regardless of which physical nation they belonged to.

Those in Israel who refused to become followers of The Way were removed from the earth, God now using his new spiritual nation to be the example to others and to spread the news about how to live in harmony and fellowship with Himself.

The Church was given God's Holy Spirit to follow rather than a written code of conduct like Israel's, but the church is failing as Israel did. Her example is lacking in quality and integrity, and her influence is compromised in most parts of the globe.  Hence Satan's influence continues to dominate the conduct of world affairs and the behaviour of men.

God will eventually judge the world again, saving those who know Him and live in harmony with Him to be co-rulers with Him in the next age, often called the Millenium.

The Millenium will be a guaranteed success as the influence of Satan is to be removed for its duration.

At the end of the Millenium, all those not alive during that age - those who had been removed from the earth in previous ages through physical death of one sort or another without knowing God - will be raised, judged and sentenced to the appropriate "punishment" that will bring them to repentance and reconciliation.

In this way, all things will be restored, all of God's creation will be in harmony with him and the ages will have been completed, having served their purpose.

All of God's creation will then join Him and enjoy Him in eternity.

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Rog, that now gives us 4 new posts since we last talked.  See you tonight.  Barry