Hi Barry
Just heard a sermon preached on Grieving the Holy Spirit, and I want to start some discussion with you and your blog community about the following questions if I may. I am guessing the the below questions cover much scope - but here goes anyhow.
1. What exactly is the "Unforgivable Sin"?
2. Is the Holy Spirit grieved by those who are unsaved (when they sin) in the same way that He is grieved by us who call ourselves Christians (when we sin)?
3. And if 2 is yes then can we say the Holy Spirit indwells in as ALL, and salvation (or the sinner prayer) is an acknowledgement of his indwelling.
It is my hunch that 3 is true and has been true since Christ resurrection.
4. and finally, it is also my hunch that this "grieving" is the thing that Jesus most dreaded on the mount of olives when He asked His Father to take His cup if possible. The torture and crucifixion was horrendous, but spiritually living within 9 billion sinning people until they are pure sounds even worse for HIM.
what do you think?
Glenn
Just heard a sermon preached on Grieving the Holy Spirit, and I want to start some discussion with you and your blog community about the following questions if I may. I am guessing the the below questions cover much scope - but here goes anyhow.
1. What exactly is the "Unforgivable Sin"?
2. Is the Holy Spirit grieved by those who are unsaved (when they sin) in the same way that He is grieved by us who call ourselves Christians (when we sin)?
3. And if 2 is yes then can we say the Holy Spirit indwells in as ALL, and salvation (or the sinner prayer) is an acknowledgement of his indwelling.
It is my hunch that 3 is true and has been true since Christ resurrection.
4. and finally, it is also my hunch that this "grieving" is the thing that Jesus most dreaded on the mount of olives when He asked His Father to take His cup if possible. The torture and crucifixion was horrendous, but spiritually living within 9 billion sinning people until they are pure sounds even worse for HIM.
what do you think?
Glenn
Here's my first stab at Question 1.
ReplyDeleteThe unforgivable or unpardonable sin is the name we have given to the sin Jesus is referring to in Matthew 12 : 31 as "blasphemy against the Spirit." It is also mentioned in Mark 3 : 29.
Reading the incident that led Jesus to make this comment suggests to me that blasphemy against the Spirit is giving credit to Satan for something the Holy Spirit had done (Matthew 12) or calling the Holy Spirit an evil spirit (Mark 3). Either way it is calling the Holy Spirit evil or calling His work evil. Maybe this could be generalised as a total rejection/resisting of the person and work of the Holy Spirit.
This sin has become known as unpardonable because of our poor English translations of the underlying Greek.
In Matthew 12, translations have improved recently and many have become quite correct.
Mt 12:31 ... And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Mt 12:32 ... Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. [NIV]
Jesus makes a general statement in verse 31 and then gives more detail in verse 32. He is saying that this sin will not be forgiven in this age (the church age) or the one to come (the kingdom age).
In Mark 3, although it looks nothing like it in most of the popular English translations, Jesus is saying the same thing.
Mark 3 : 29 ... but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit has not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment; [Young's Literal Translation]
If a person sins in this way, totally rejects/resists the person and work of the Holy Spirit, then he/she cannot come to faith in this or the next age and is a certain candidate for the Great White Throne judgement at the end of the kingdom age, and for cleaning-up in the lake of fire straight after.
Those of us who have had our salvation revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, have become disciples of Christ and are responding to the cleaning-up work of the Spirit in this age will be reigning with Christ in the next.
Those who reject/resist the person and work of the HS will remain alienated from God in this and the next age, and will not be raised until it's time for the final judgement - no belief or knowledge of salvation or forgiveness until after these two ages.
What do you think? Barry
Thanks Barry
ReplyDeleteThe inferrence that my pastor made about this is that those who reject Christ (or the HS prompting and His work) up to their death will be unforgiven and spend eternity in hell - he didn't actually say this but there was a strong inferrence.
The concept of an unforgivable sin is very frightenning for a christian. I don't think I can understate that.
This is a good thing too as it has raised many questions and discussions at our church. I am more interested in a universal salvation perpective on this though, hence my postings.
No Barry you mention the unforgiven sinner spends 2 ages in hell for corrective purposes.
Is my pastor just using the 'Eternity' idea of hell (perhaps incorrectly) but quite correct in his definition of unforgivable sin?
Glenn
Correction
ReplyDelete"No Barry" should read "Now Barry"
G
Thank you Barry
ReplyDeleteAfter carfully re-reading your post I think you have answered the first question quite well for me. It's the generalsation of Mark 3:29 to include rejection of the HS is what I am getting hung up upon - I am now thinking the generalistion that you refer to is probably wrong - It is more than just rejection and it is NOT non-belief. It's a full public campaign to discredit the HS and attempt to infuence others to do the same. In a nutsehll - being an anti Christ.
I can't think of too many people who fit into that category. So I am hoping most folks are safe from that one. I am assuming here that Jesus was warning the pharisees in their ignorance that they were getting close to that point.
Looking forward to other comments.
Glenn
Hi Glenn.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if I have grasped the meaning of everything you have said, but here are some thoughts. If I'm not on target, please re-direct me.
Definition of the unforgivable sin.
Firstly, I don't like the word unforgivable. Jesus died for ALL our sins, so no sin is unforgivable. The sin we are talking about here just has harsher consequences than other sins - keeps us alienated from God for two ages, but certainly not forever. So it is not unforgivable.
Secondly, since unbelief in this life has the same consequences as this sin, it is reasonable to assume they are the same sin. Hence your pastor's definition probably fits my generalisation.
However all these bits can't fit together consistently. You can't have Jesus paying the price for all our sins as well as an unforgivable sin; we can't have sin having an eternal effect for anyone if Jesus died for the sins of everyone, etc.
The Two Ages and hell.
I would describe how these bits fit together quite differently, but I don't think you are after this at the moment, so won't muddy the water.
Anyone else want to get into this? Barry
Question 2 - Grieving the Holy Spirit
ReplyDeleteMy thought is that the HS might be grieved MORE when WE sin (rather than unbelievers) since we have the benefit of the HS indwelling us showing us what is right and offering us the power to do it, while unbelievers sin more naturally and therefore expectantly without that guidance and power.
Question 3 - Holy Spirit in us all and salvation is acknowledgement of Him
I don't think the HS indwells us all.
However when it is our turn to believe, the HS comes to us and reveals God, Jesus, and their love for us and the salvation that has already been credited to us. From that time onwards, the HS indwells us.
So I am differing with you on this at the moment, but very ready to learn from you.
Why do you think so? What Scriptures support your view?
In other words, SHOW ME :-)
But I do agree, that we believe because we are saved, rather than be saved because we believe.
Blessings, Barry
Question 4 - What is grieving the HS?
ReplyDeleteGrieving someone is to make them sad or sorry or sorrowful.
Going back to Question 2 I would assume that the HS would be most grieved by me not listening to His advice or following His leading or trying to use my own power and resources rather than His to defeat sin and the devil in my daily walk.
I am sure there are many times (apart from the ones you have mentioned) when He or Jesus or God would be grieved though.
Examples in the Bible.
God was even grieved He had made man in the days of Noah (Genesis 6 : 6).
Jesus was sad as He thought about Jerusalem's destruction (Luke 23 :37, 38)
The HS was grieved with the behaviour of Israel's wilderness generation (Hebrews 3 : 7 - 11)
Plus, of course, all the times we do while just doing life as Christians.
Keep questioning, thinking, exploring, suggesting ........
You have as much to teach us as we have to teach you.
Blessings, Barry
Hi Barry
ReplyDeleteThanks for your detailed response.
As I said earlier my hunch was that 3 is true - it may not be true. It's my hunch because I have never had an experience of the HS filling me, only a sense of God's pressence and strong convictions by my conscience to do something when a choice is needed.
Christian believers do not have the monopoly on acts of consience. Scriptual support for my "hunch" may be a streatch but here goes.
MAT 7:16 "By their fruit you will recognize them" Jesus was talinkg about the bad fruit of false prophets as a sign of their falseness, but I think good fruits can be described in GAL 5:22 - 26 which are of course 'The fruits of the Spirit" which can be also seen as a sign of the HS indewlling in a person. Like our conscience, the fruits described by Paul are also not unique to Christian believers or to believers period.
Another scripture which may or may not be related is MAT 27:50-53. Some comentators say the the tearing of the curtain signifies that our access to God is no longer blocked, but you can also say that God (on Earth) only dwelt in the "Holiest of Holies" behind that curtain - and now does not. So you can now ask the question "where does he now dwell on this Earth?" thus leading me back to point 3.
I admit these interpretations are a bit loose.
Glenn
Hi Glenn
ReplyDeleteSorry for my delay in responding, but I haven't done any blog work (or any other writing for that matter) for a week or so. But today I am into it again.
My response to you is both a 'yes' and a 'no'.
I will address the "no" in this Comment and the 'yes' in the next.
No - I don't think your hunch is right when you say the HS indwells us all (believers and non-believers alike) in your original post. I believe we are all saved as a result of Jesus' work on the cross, although most of us are unaware of that fact, and remain so until God draws us to Him. But I don't think this means that we are all indwelt by the HS, because that happens as the result of relationship, as expressed in verses like
John 14 : 15 - 17
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot acept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."
John 15 : 4
"Remain in me and I will remain in you."
1 John 4 : 13
"We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his spirit."
These appear to exclude the HS indwelling unbelievers because there is no relationship yet happening, but I am open to be shown otherwise.
Barry
Here is the continuation of the last comment - the 'Yes' part.
ReplyDeleteYes - I believe the HS indwells all believers whether they have had a significant outward experience or display of that or not, and they will all develop, mature and display the fruits and power of the Spirit because of that indwelling over time.
Outward experiences may be demonstrative like speaking in tongues or prophesying or gifts of healing, but may more quiet, although equally visible, like a change in character or behaviour.
Other evidences of the indwelling HS may be a deep prayer-life or strong direction/guidance or discerning of spirits or an unquenchable thirst for the Scriptures/times of worship and devotion - often more internal than external.
In all cases though, believers will become more Christ-like and will become overcomers in their daily living as the sanctifying work of the HS indwelling them has its effect. Indeed it will be Christ-like overcomers who will be ruling with Christ in the kingdom age.
And "yes" - your comments that many unbelievers display these fruit characteristics - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control - and have properly working consciences is also true.
How do we explain these if the HS is not indwelling them?
I think there are many possibilities including family upbringing, schooling, cultural influences and the company people keep. I also believe because we were made in God's image there is some of that image remaining in all of us. Regardless of how much we have tarnished that image, we have some of it left, although the amount and type remaining differs from person to person.
It is the HS's sanctifying task to rid us of the fruits of the flesh (listed in the verses above Galatians 5 : 22 - 26) and to bring to maturity the fruits of the Spirit, the characteristics of God.
With regard to the curtain being torn, I agree that access to God is no longer blocked, but that does not mean a relationship is in place. If you like, God is reconciled to us by the work of Jesus, but we are not all reconciled to God (yet). A relationship is bi-directional, and eventually will be for all of us.
Is there anything I've missed, haven't thrown my two cents worth at? Do you have other opinions on this topic to share?
Glenn, I'm always challenged by your questions. I don't have all the answers, but keep thinking and throwing your questions into the blog and we'll discover them together.
Bless you mate, Barry
Here's another verse that suggests we don't all have the HS indwelling us.
ReplyDeleteWhen speaking to the Sanhedrin, the apostles related what they had seen and knew about Jesus, then said, "We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Agreed, it doesn't say if He is given to others or not, but the suggestion is that He is given to a special group - believers.
Barry